Governance & Code of Conduct

Follow up of the topic of nurturing a friendly online community and handling inappropriate ways of communicating of certain community members, here is a link to the code of conduct in place in the Funkwhale community :

This code of conduct was co-build with the members of the community, and maybe Loomio as a tool is also useful for that  (see the example here In this process they conducted an “anti-abuse audit” which might be useful as inspiration.

More at large in open source projects, the is a good base plate if you don’t have a code of conduct.

Another tool I know for this kind of issue is the “move commons” label which is similar to creative commons in some ways (the site doesn’t seem to be updated since 2012, so there might be a good replacement for this).

Hope this collective and this initiatives finds the right tools and methods for its community ! Good luck and my thoughts go out to people who feel abused in this community. ❤️

ps. sorry, I haven’t looked deeper into the discussions with the members with whom you are having difficulties.


hey, great pick up; i didn’t read all but I think it’s easier to address rights first before getting lost in opinionated set of rules which favor personal preference but not basic rights fought out over centuries;  I side by with Julian Assange  and James Madison : you have 2 choices : ignore or argue/ask (and it’s hopefully given)

and secondly as seen in the last clash, privacy first; the forum is a pretty hidden place; for a pretty narrow minority; I think we can agree on @s2019 and others also said: whats in the forum, stays in the forum unless agreed otherwise; just like under friends.


you’re right, fully forgot this brand/ego thing of nowadays :
– make sure, your identity, crimes, unrelated works are fully exposed, with lots of points and likes of course, so everyone can see you’re the man and evtl. starts listening …
– photos of cats in the shredder, ups, I mean cats on the shredder
–  talking like to the police, ack !  deal, i just never spoke to them; i have to call someone up
– stay always on the subject, no matter the dependencies/ resources involved

do we have a forum section beer’o clock yet ? no ? well, here you go 😉
anyways, i hear’ya! thx

Interesting, I don’t remember someone from Namibia posting George Carlin videos.

I try to keep things simple for myself:
Stay on topic
Use language as if you were talking to the policeman that stopped you for a traffic violation.
Humor is good but understand what happens if not everyone gets it.
When in doubt include a cat video.

so that’s the summary for me :

– no more links or jokes related George Carlin, Jim Jefferies, or even slightest science work on regarding the Gervais principles meets PP
– say only good things, and only good things; basically that would amount 1% of freedom of what i’ve seen on within the youtube and other networks comments, anyway, seems to be like that ‘Spain is different’ thing
– take everything serious, very serious, super serious, well, and not so serious
– trust only values provided and shared by anyone here but do not trust anyone outside
– don’t question PP, at all, just don’t, if you I do, I could hurt all the others so badly that they are depressed and never come back
– be nice, super nice, so nice that everything ends with an <3

deal, great;
seems reasonable, I should pull a new programming language, ‘PP script’

<3, have sweet dreams

right; a little sad but ok, i obey. at the end of the day, I really want everybody happy about what we’re doing here to our-self, to others, and to the environment. often i recon often it’s little more about ‘the goal justifies the means’, kinda ‘we do it just because we can’ sort of thing; anyways, problem solved.
next 😉


While I struggle to find active (local) members, funding, (also) translating, collection, research, information etc.

For this the forum is also not the place, but it could be a great starting point for finding your way (or at least it should be).


The point a lot of problems are also offline (“for those at my door step”) is not lost on me.

In acting locally maybe even more so than in machine building.

I e.g. really need local platforms. No problem to start one, but I would like to keep them connected to the larger PP/OA-community.

This is also why the ‘context’ of the platforms is important to me. Scaleability!

There isn’t a pyramid yet, but there should be.



Your move. The Topic came down to a “guideline” (see above) and the need for dedicated ‘backstage’ platforms.

These platforms I’m still researching for your dedicated topic Tools for realtime communication

right, fine with me 🙂 i just placed my humble opinion here, also in hope i get corrected. btw. machines are not the only concern I see myself often struggeling with; unfortunately, it seems i have to re-invent PP from scratch to make this work for those at my door step. that is about manuals, translations, product / kit design, FAQs, mission, numbers, how-tos, limits and all what comes with it.

First: I prefer to use PPHQ (headquarters) instead of PP Eindhoven, as these are not necessarily the same (being from Eindhoven myself).


Second: Most of what you describe only concerns ‘the bazar’.


I refer to the mission statement of Precious Plastic:

Precious Plastic is a global community of hundreds of people working towards a solution to plastic pollution. Knowledge, tools and techniques are shared online, for free. So everyone can start (yes, you too!).

The tools are only part of the mission…


I understand the (precious plastic) machines are the most important part to you (and the V4 team), but they aren’t the most important part to the community and forum. If they became the focus of the forum, 90% of people would leave again to go look elsewhere.


This is also why PPHQ is sitting in the backseat (or rather: under the hood) of the Forum and why most of the machine builders are not here.
It may not have started out this way, but that’s the current reality.


Again not saying the machines and their issues are not important, just that these are only part of the platform, not the enitre platform by itself.

Most of the ‘machine’ forum is backstage or on private/local platforms, if online at all.


By keeping the Forum about disseminating information (in general) and setting up a public (anyone can join) backstage (like a discord) for machine builders* (including V4) the car can start to run smoothly again.

*and a discord for local activities, and a discord for research and…


Now EVERYBODY is being drowned out.

Not just the machine builders are not here, most of the local communities also are not(!). Why? in part because of endless discords like this.

This conversation belongs on a yet non existing dedicated administrative platform.

Just like the machine discussions belong on a machine builders platform.

Just like the research topics belong in dedicated research platform.

All linked by public topics (presentations) on a community platform, where questions can be asked and answered (dissemination of knowledge), but discussion are moved to ‘free to join’ dedicated channels.

I stick to my original proposal for a guideline: is

“An All Ages, information sharing public forum, regarding Precious Plastic and it’s Open Source Ecology, on which the readers are asked to keep an open mind and assume positive intent”

and would like to continue researching the options for the backstages.

I’m not ignoring your concerns, far from it, but in this forum they mainly fall on deaf ears, hence also your frustration with not being heard. And I know you are not alone in this, as this is not just about you.
Creating a potent backstage platform, with all interested parties involved would get your (and everybody elses) concerns heard.


quick sum up,
so we have these parties involved :
1. PP Eindhoven, as owner of the car but sitting rather on the back seat but yet, with the feet on the brake pedal.
2. DIYers with not much complaints of course
3. Machine builders but obviously never really here but belong on the front seat of that very car, just as described in ‘You slowing us down
4. neutral supervision to make sure customer/user protection is being respected in every aspect, that’s us, unfortunately; i never wanted to do this, really but the dimension we’re looking at it requires a body which minimizes damages and gets hot-fixes though the system ASAP. btw, I am not the only one who has lots of frustration and disappointment for the PP project, I am just the one who speaks it out as is, and I am very sorry not to be fan of soft-languages in such matters 😉
5. normal (often fully under skilled, with good intend ) end-user/customers who want to make a change by using the machines in questions (i don’t see much traffic other than about using, buying and building the machines)

I understand PP also as platform, also a great experiment to test a virtual project kamp; the economics and interest driven audiences will be also there, …

now to the problem, obviously; we actually don’t need a code of conduct; i think it’s waste of time, but eventually we could look at how can get all parties being able to steer the car 🙂 and i hope, not just by abusing democracy, ownership or similar

Quite a lot of ink dripping down for one single person.

which is a hard thing for me to do; realizing also PP needs a sort of ‘consumer protection’ body (we’re alone with that), looking at the scale those broken machines being still build on a daily base ….

yeah yeah, Precious Platics is too limiting for the complete Dave Hakkens Forum, but all other activities are part of the PP OSEcology, so are still covered 😉

I did not use One Army (which would have been better) as it has not yet been as clearly defined as PP…

I’m my own worse critic!


“An All Ages, information sharing public forum, regarding Precious Plastic and it’s Open Source Ecology, on which the readers are asked to keep an open mind and assume positive intent”


hate speech will be broaden to a point that operators hit the ban button for whatever reason they like.

Which in itself is a form of hatespeech.

Giving the order to ‘ban’ (speech (through computer code)) because you don’t like (hate) something…


Hatespeech is defined by law.

True not all operators know these laws, but in a CoC this could also be overcome by defining ‘Hatespeech is defined by the operators’, as most sites do.


Guidelines are indeed much user friendly, but this still does not negate the fact there are always also laws in effect.

These Guidelines are only there to try to explain them.


As a Dutch citizen I could insult the Dutch King on a US forum without getting kicked of the Forum. Still could be arrested in the Netherlands though for ‘majesteitsschennis’ (insulting the king)). If an American did the same on a Dutch forum, the forum could get into trouble is they didn’t ban the American.

Americans insulting the Dutch King on an American forum, hosted on a Dutch server, server can be taken down…

So as in real estate so it is by law: location, location, loacation.

The guideline would be: Try to stay away from Politics and Royalty on the Forum.


You want to be free of these laws, you’d have to go behind the closed doors of a dark web with the forum. Laws would still apply, but only when actions enter the real world, like drugs or actual abuse.

Or go into politics, and try to change/get rid of the laws.


Again, I’m not advocating these limitations on Freedom (as a matter of fact, I hate them as much as the next guy), I’m simply stating they are FACT and we should be aware of them (they should be respected (at least in a public forum)).


Or in short:

There already is a Code of Conduct (Laws).

There also already is Governance ((administrative) site owners and moderators).

The Guidelines also exist: Common Sense.

These are however too broadly defined.


What is needed:

–An age indication (in this case public and registered is ‘all ages’)
–Boundaries (e.g. no advertising any closed source products or of topic topics)
–Context ( Open Source and Open Minded, Assuming positive intent)


let me correct, we have currently over a dozen artists in jail here in espanistan because unveiling the connections of the crown doing arm sales to the saudies as well the crowns enrichment through public funds; the absurd part is they put them then in prison for glorifying terrorism and hate speech. mind the irony.
I think germany is now also practicing this sort of abuse of laws; whatever fits to their ‘hate speech’ definitions will be used. seems to be a general trend for social network providers as well and we all know well how fast they take down ‘freedom fighters’, activists, etc …

ok, may be it’s easier then to talk about guide lines, ‘code of conducts’ sounds more like a strict set of rules. i am also not sure what laws we’re referring to here; here in the EU people are sent to prison just for having fun on royal families. in the US you can say what ever you like so far which makes sense because definitions of
hate speech will be broaden to a point that operators hit the ban button for whatever reason they like.


Often these codes are more ’emotional’ than ‘legal’, making them weak.

‘be nice to eachother’ is not the same as ‘freedom of speech’.

‘freedom of speech’ is not the same as ‘allowed to say anything’.



All forums, incl. the internet are bound by International Law (basic rights).

Local laws only are involved when it comes to legal enforcement of these rights.

A ‘Code of Conduct’ is nothing more than the ‘house rules’ you agree to when entering the place.

They are by nature ‘limitatations’ of these basic rights, as you can’t expand them.

I can’t e.g. legalize murder in my house/venue.


One of the most important basic laws is the right of ‘protection’.

Protection from Violence.

Protection from Abuse.

Protection from Age inappropriate Language.

Protection from Hatespeech.

Freedom of Religion (protection from persecution based on your Religion)


Most of these are defined by International Law.

The others are defined by the Victims(!)


Example 1: a public forum can’t have adult language or topics (by law). This can only be the done on a ‘private’ site on which the users have declared to be over 18 (or in other words: users wave their right for ‘protection from Adult language/content’).


Example 2: Hatespeech is never allowed. (Treatening) Violence or abuse is also always illegal. Unless it is done on a private forum, on which boundaries are clearly defined. “I’m going to hit you so hard you’re never going to be able to walk straight again” could be hatespeech or treatening violence, unless it is understood to be happening within the boundaries of ‘the ring’ of a boxing match. By entering the site users accept these broadened boundaries, and wave their rights to be protected from hatespeech and treats (within context (see next example))


Example 3: The internet has no religion, unless the site/forum states clearly it has a Religion.

Freedom of Religion also means Freedom from Religion. I can’t talk about my believes, without imposing them on the listener (believ me 😉 ). For a forum to DO have religion, it must be defined in the clear context of what religion(s) are deemed to be accepted. By entering the site user accept these religions as (possibly) true, waving their rights to protection from ‘Freedom of Religion’.


In all these examples the waving of their rights makes it so the user can’t claim to be a ‘victim’ whose rights have been violated…


These are extreme examples, but illustrate the CoD must at least contain:

An age indication (in this case public is ‘all ages’)

Boundaries (e.g. no advertising any closed source products or of topic topics)

Context ( Open Source and Open Minded)

And yes: ‘Assume positive intent‘ can/must be part of this context.

Sometimes ‘Lets eat Grandma’ is just a typo…


There should also be a system in place in which ‘victims’ can report ‘abuse’.

If I call somebody an Idiot, and this person does not mind, it’s not abuse, so nobody else has the right to report (this is the ‘freedom of speech’).

If the ‘idiot’ DOES mind, (s)he CAN report, because the right of Protection trumps the ‘freedom of speech’ in this case.

A moderator only has to determine ‘context’ and ‘intent’ and base his/her judgement on this.

‘Governance’ can determine the ‘abuser’ first gets a chance to correct his/her behaviour (post be quarentined), gets a ‘strike’ when not responding (post removed) and gets a time-out/removed/banned(!) from the forum after X strikes.

‘Governance’ could also state a ‘strike’ only lasts for 1 month.



Makes any sense?

i am very, very happy to hear that; that’s why comparing it to gibberish around basic rights was the first coming to mind

i am so happy to see @sonik being back at the table 😉